L10N IRC Meeting 20100319

Latest revision as of 16:25, 13 May 2011

Meeting summary is here: http://wiki.meego.com/L10n_meeting_summary_19_March

[08:54]<mlfoster>Good morning/afternoon everyone. The Localization Working Group meeting is scheduled to start in 7 minutes. All are welcome to attend.
[08:54]<mlfoster>Meeting agenda is here: http://wiki.meego.com/L10N_meeting_3_19
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[08:58]<mrinx>hello
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[08:59]<mlfoster>mrinx: Hi! Are you here for the l10n meeting?
[08:59]<mrinx>yeah
[08:59]<mlfoster>welcome!
[08:59]<frmarava>Hello!
[08:59]<mlfoster>hi frmarava!
[09:00]<mlfoster>Please review the agenda and last meeting minutes so you all know what we're discussing today. Summary of last meeting here: http://wiki.meego.com/L10n_meeting_summary
[09:01]<mlfoster>I'd like to first review the status of our "To-Do" items
[09:01]<mlfoster>unfortunately, OgMaciel is unable to attend today, so I'll ask him to update us via the mailing list
[09:02]<mlfoster>Is there anyone here from the gnome l10n community?
[09:03]<mlfoster>That was something we discussed in our first meeting--how to work with existing communities. That was also one of OgMaciel's To-Do items.
[09:04]<mlfoster>If any of you are part of, or know folks in the gnome l10n community, please invite them to join the mailing list, post on the wiki, or contact me directly.
[09:04]<mlfoster>That's also true for the fedora project.
[09:05]<mlfoster>We have the beginning of a L10N steering group, but we need more members from the community. We were hoping that some of you from maemo would be interested...again, please let me know.
[09:05]<mlfoster>We agreed on 2 Intel reps, 2 Nokia reps, and 5-6 members from the l10n community.
[09:06]<mlfoster>This group will work closely with the TNG to make sure L10N issues are recognized and resolved
[09:07]<mlfoster>OK, moving on...please feel free to make comments..I'm feeling a bit lonely here :-)
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[09:07]<mlfoster>We started some language specific working teams: http://wiki.meego.com/Language_specific_working_groups
[09:07]<davidecr>Maybe we can send a message to all the groups at http://l10n.gnome.org/teams/ cause I don't find anywhere to contact them.
[09:07]<mlfoster>please join or start one--we have over 25 so far!
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[09:08]<frmarava>Hi, I am actually from Nokia Maemo
[09:08]<mlfoster>I've also started a l10n plan for MeeGo--very rudimentary-- but it's available here: http://wiki.meego.com/L10n_plan
[09:08]<mlfoster>frmarava: welcome!! I'm glad you are here
[09:09]<frmarava>thank you, I am in Localisation Testing
[09:09]<frmarava>very interested in Localisation issues
[09:09]<mlfoster>davidecr: thanks--that's a great idea. I think that was what OgMaciel might have had in mind.
[09:10]<mlfoster>frmarava: your expertise will be most welcome--I think l10n testing is very much undervalued many times
[09:10]<mlfoster>frmarava: are you interested in joining the L10N steering group?
[09:10]<davidecr>mlfoster: If you need me to, I can do that.
[09:11]<mlfoster>davidecr: thank you! that would be great
[09:11]<frmarava>sad but true, I am very eager to know how this will be handled in MeeGo (if any plan)
[09:11]<frmarava>I could but I already asked some representative from L10n and probably somebody will join the next meeting... this time I am alone...
[09:11]<mlfoster>frmarava: I believe that the Intel QA team has a plan--I hope they can share it with us soon
[09:12]<mlfoster>frmarava: that's a start! thank you :-)
[09:12]<mlfoster>frmarava: although we would like two reps from Nokia :-)
[09:13]<mlfoster>I'd like to take this opportunity to let you all know that there will be a MeeGo Day at the upcoming Linux Collaboration Summit next month.
[09:14]<mlfoster>It will be April 15th. There will also be a L10N "Birds of a Feather" session at the end of the day. If you are attending the Summit, please come on by
[09:15]<mlfoster>I am also looking into arranging a similar session at OSCON later this year. I suspect there will be more attendees at that
[09:15]<mlfoster>If you are coming to either one, let me know. I'd like to meet as many of you as I can.
[09:16]<mlfoster>I will definitely write up a report and post to the wiki and the mailing list.
[09:16]<mlfoster>I was hoping that Dimitris Glezos would be here to talk about Transifex.
[09:16]<mlfoster>We all agreed at the last meeting to use this tool for MeeGo.
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[09:17]<mlfoster>I am working with Dimitris and the Linux Foundation to get things moving. In the meantime, translations for MeeGo are being done here: http://translate.moblin.org
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[09:17]<mlfoster>anyone have any questions or comments so far?
[09:17]<Saviq>one thing from the last meeting that was brought up - collaboration with upstream
[09:18]<TheOne>hi @all
[09:18]<mlfoster>Saviq: yes, that is something that is very important
[09:18]<mlfoster>and I welcome this group's expertise on that
[09:18]<Saviq>I think both upstream and downstream can benefit from people translating MeeGo
[09:18]<mlfoster>there was some comments on the mailing list
[09:19]<mlfoster>Saviq: I agree 100%
[09:19]<Saviq>I think it would be best that the developers marked strings that are changed (for example shortened) as 'not-to-be-upstreamed'
[09:19]<Saviq>and the upstream could only receive changes to strings that have not been marked with that tag
[09:20]<mlfoster>auke: is this possible with Transifex?
[09:20]<solt>Saviq: s/developers/translators/ I guess
[09:20]<Saviq>solt: no
[09:20]<Saviq>solt: it'd be a (meego) developer's decision
[09:21]<Saviq>if he wants to change a string, for example because it doesn't fit in the MeeGo UI
[09:21]<solt>ah.. ok. agreed
[09:21]<Saviq>he'd mark that string with a certain comment, so that upstream wouldn't be bothered
[09:22]<mlfoster>so, allow me to ask a dumb question here. if MeeGo uses an upstream package, and changes some strings in it (shortens, for example), this would be a way to get those shortened strings translated without affecting the longer strings?
[09:22]<Saviq>yes, I think so
[09:22]<mlfoster>it would be up to the upstream developer to decide?
[09:22]<solt>yes.. so Megoo strings remain in meego realm
[09:22]<mlfoster>which makes sense
[09:23]<Saviq>mlfoster: no, I think it would be the meego developer's choice, so that we wouldn't bother upstream with unneeded changes at all
[09:23]<Saviq>all changes to strings that are present in upstream should be reported upstream, too (well, unless MeeGo follows this same 'casual' terminology as Moblin did?)
[09:24]<mlfoster>ah...so how would the meego changes be integrated with the package? isn't that up to the upstream developer--to accept or reject?
[09:24]<Saviq>well, yes
[09:24]<mlfoster>MeeGo will indeed carry on the "casual" terminology like Moblin
[09:25]<solt>I guess there is the room for agreement with upstream teams.
[09:25]<Saviq>but he would only be asked about changes that the downstream developers would consider useful for upstream
[09:25]<mlfoster>so, we definitely do NOT want to change any of the existing translations
[09:25]<Saviq>mlfoster: then all such changes (to 'casualise' the strings from upstream) should be marked to be bound to meego-scope
[09:26]<Saviq>without upstream being notified about them
[09:26]<mlfoster>solt: this is where I get confused---how do you communicate with the upstream teams?
[09:26]<mlfoster>we use Transifex, which directly links to git. This works well for meego-hosted projects (where meego is upstream)
[09:27]<solt>hmmm beego dev takes and upstream package and changes the string to fit UI, marks it as #meego-only, meego translaotrs for given upstream projects must be transtalors in upstream projects as well.
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[09:27]<mlfoster>but when meego uses upstream packages and then adds the "casual" terminology, that's where I'm not sure I understand the next steps
[09:27]<mlfoster>ah, that's the key!
[09:28]<auke>mlfoster: there's no way to "mark" translations from the translator side of things in transifex
[09:28]<mlfoster>meego translators must be in upstream project as well
[09:28]<Saviq>I think that would be difficult
[09:28]<mlfoster>auke: right, it appears that the developers have to do the marking
[09:29]<mlfoster>Saviq: why do you think that?
[09:29]<solt>This way, meego translaor is empowered (being upstream translator) to publish or not the string higher
[09:29]<Saviq>mlfoster: because there's too many of them, I think there could be coordinators that would talk to upstream to apply relevant changes
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[09:30]<Saviq>solt: I'm afraid that would just never happen
[09:30]<Saviq>unless integrated into Transifex directly
[09:31]<mlfoster>Saviq: how should meego translators approach the larger community?
[09:31]<mlfoster>I think this is what OgMaciel was going to look into
[09:31]<Saviq>I think through some kind of a coordinator that would, once in a while, get the relevant changed strings and send them to the upstream project
[09:32]<mlfoster>should that coordinator be from the larger community or from meego?
[09:32]<mlfoster>or does it matter?
[09:32]<Saviq>don't think it does
[09:32]<Saviq>there's one more thing - as translations are directly bound by developers - are / how are code changes upstreamed?
[09:32]<mlfoster>OK, this would be a good topic for the L10N Steering Group to talk about
[09:34]<mlfoster>Saviq: not sure i understand your question
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[09:34]<mlfoster>"translations are directly bound by developers"?
[09:34]<auke>Saviq: we've had good developers that have been posting translations upstream to their respective project owners
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[09:34]<Saviq>mlfoster: without changes in code (the orignal string), there's nothing that changes in translation
[09:34]<auke>it's mostly up to the developers and package maintainers to do so (and we will look at them if they don't :))
[09:35]<Saviq>so the solution might even be easier
[09:35]<mlfoster>Saviq: yes, I agree
[09:35]<Saviq>take the template file from upstream, compare it with MeeGo template file
[09:35]<solt>Saviq: not necessarily. We may have to trimm some strings without changing teh code
[09:35]<Saviq>solt: you can't
[09:36]<solt>You kno wit well.. some short english string become looong polish ones
[09:36]<auke>one of the things I have been wondering about is to create "partial overlay" pot/po pairs for strings that will be casualized
[09:36]<auke>unfortunately gettext isn't too helpful, perhaps the qt l10n stuff has better options for that
[09:36]<Saviq>ok, back to the point: take the template file from upstream, compare it with MeeGo template file
[09:37]<Saviq>from translations extract only the strings that match those from upstream
[09:38]<Saviq>so they're the only ones relevant, without 'marking' them in MeeGo code at all
[09:38]<Saviq>then the upstream only needs to know differences for those strings
[09:39]<Saviq>we can't send changed translations for strings for which code wasn't upstreamed anyway
[09:39]<Saviq>because they won't fit anywhere
[09:39]<mlfoster>Saviq: this sounds very interesting...
[09:39]<auke>yeah, I agree there's plenty to be experimented with
[09:39]<auke>perhaps we shouldn't make this meeting a technical in-depth one though :)
[09:40]<auke>mlfoster: I missed an agenda, did you have one for this meeting?
[09:40]<mlfoster>auke: yes, agreed. Let's take the discussion to the mailing list or wiki to get more input
[09:40]<mlfoster>auke: yes, scroll up a bit and you will see the link to the agenda
[09:41]<mlfoster>I wanted to talk about the Transifex migration, but Dimitris is not here
[09:41]<Saviq>mlfoster: so, still, the 'decision-maker' would be a) meego developer sends code upstream with only those changes that make sense for upstream, b) upstream developer decides which of the changes actually do make sense
[09:42]<auke>Saviq: yes, basically. correct.
[09:42]<mlfoster>Saviq: yes
[09:42]<Saviq>so the upstream template changes
[09:42]<Saviq>and then there's a way to compare upstream and meego templates
[09:43]<Saviq>and only extract changes to strings that are present in both
[09:43]<Mirv>just hi from me. I'm late and I've to run again but I was originally planning to join this meeting
[09:43]<mlfoster>I'm certainly willing to give this a go...it's been a problem for us in the past (us being Moblin)
[09:43]<mlfoster>Mirv: glad you could pop in!
[09:44]<gL|Homertje>yeh sorry been in here for 40 minutes without saying hi, so hi from me aswell
[09:44]<Saviq>I will describe the process I'm thinking about on the ML
[09:44]<mlfoster>Saviq: that would be great--thank you
[09:44]<Saviq>well, I didn't say hi yet, so Hi!
[09:44]<mlfoster>Hi everyone! :-)
[09:45]<gL|Homertje>and boldly i disrupt the whole meeting... sorry
[09:45]<mlfoster>One of the agenda items I wanted to cover was the status of MeeGo translation. All of the strings are in PO files on translate.moblin.org
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[09:46]<mlfoster>the meego translators have been doing a good job keeping up with the 16 "high priority" languages, but we'd sure like to see every language that we have a team for represented
[09:47]<mlfoster>please check it out--let me know if you have any questions--the packages that need translation are listed here: http://wiki.meego.com/L10n_plan
[09:48]<mlfoster>For those that are new to this group, we are planning on continuing to use Transifex for translations---we will be migrating from its current URL to a new one, hosted by transifex.net
[09:48]<solt>mlfoster: I guess people are waiting for meego.transifex and perhaps need to be encourage to start with moblin one.
[09:49]<Mirv>at some point we should discuss more about package specific handling with upstream as well as the general part. eg. maybe manage the string diff between meego gnome-control-center and upstream
[09:49]<mlfoster>I don't have a firm date for when this will happen, but it will be announced on the wiki and mailing list
[09:49]<davidecr>sorry for the offtopic, but maybe some other has the same problem, I've been unable to register on http://translate.moblin.org/, can anyone help me or post some intructions, or maybe post them on the mailing list.
[09:49]<mlfoster>solt: I think you are absolutely right
[09:49]<Mirv>and well, instead of dropping stuff at eg. l10n.gnome.org we could offer a web service pointing out graphically the differences in translations
[09:50]<mlfoster>davidecr: absolutely...will do that right after this meeting
[09:50]<davidecr>mlfoster: tnx :)
[09:50]<mlfoster>Mirv: tell me more
[09:50]<Mirv>I encountered one offered translation from moblin but it wasn't that nice to be handled with my upstream hat on since it wasn't clear what was changed and why
[09:51]<solt>Let's put a clear message on wiki, that the translatio nprocees is ongoing, and until the new tool is establushed we invite everyone to user moblin. And of course there must be a how to request access
[09:51]<Mirv>so probably some web service could be more verbose about the changes than a po file submit at l10n.gnome.org
[09:51]<mlfoster>solt: will do
[09:52]<solt>I could do as well, so I am not only talking ;)
[09:53]<mlfoster>solt: LOL!
[09:54]<mlfoster>I also wanted to ask you all about meeting times. I've been reading the Technical Steering Group issues with scheduling on a Friday night.
[09:54]<mlfoster>I agree Friday is not the best time
[09:54]<Saviq>I remember that getting access to translate.moblin.org was a pain...
[09:54]<mlfoster>Saviq: I'm sorry to hear that---certainly not the intent!
[09:55]<mlfoster>you have to register on moblin.org first
[09:55]<mlfoster>but I will put that info on the wiki and mailing list
[09:55]<Saviq>mlfoster: unless that has changed in the mean time, requiring people to sign up for the L10N mailing list and introducing themselves is a bit too steep IMO
[09:56]<Saviq>simply registering for an account should be enough for low-level (i.e. changes to-be-reviewed)
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[09:56]<mlfoster>Saviq: no, these are not requirements at all. It is simply easier for me to know when new people have signed up to do translations. That's all.
[09:57]<mlfoster>I will change the text on the page.
[09:57]<Saviq>mlfoster: that's how I gained access to translate.moblin.org
[09:57]<Saviq>didn't you / auke manually set up access to transifex?
[09:58]<Saviq>again - that might have changed, I joined early on
[09:59]<mlfoster>Saviq: nothing has changed, but maybe it needs to, in light of all the recent changes!
[09:59]<Mirv>is the transifex language team handling in shape nowadays? ie. team leaders can accept team members etc.?
[09:59]<gL|Homertje>@getting access: will there be a short "how to" on wiki?
[09:59]<Mirv>I haven't followed for a couple of months
[09:59]<Saviq>mlfoster: Transifex now gained different access levels, didn't it? reviewers et al?
[09:59]<mlfoster>Mirv: we haven't upgraded our version of TX yet that supports the language teams
[10:00]<auke><- meeting, logging
[10:00]<Mirv>mlfoster: ok. just checking.
[10:00]<mlfoster>we have been waiting to see when we would migrate to transifex.net
[10:00]<mlfoster>but, maybe we should upgrade in the meantime
[10:00]<mlfoster>I am anxious to try the new features
[10:02]<mlfoster>OK, this has been a good discussion
[10:02]<mlfoster>Lots of To_Dos for me
[10:02]<mlfoster>but next meeting...OK in 2 weeks? same time?
[10:03]<Saviq>mlfoster: will you get some rough minutes from the meeting for the ML?
[10:03]<mlfoster>absolutely
[10:03]<Mirv>sounds fine, maybe on time then as well :)
[10:03]<solt>sounds good
[10:03]<gL|Homertje>i'll be there...
[10:04]<Saviq>mlfoster: yeah, next week's fine with me, will post some of my ideas in response to Your minutes then
[10:04]<mlfoster>OK, then...I'll get busy on these issues. Thank you all for attending. And please, use the wiki and mailing list for any issues/concerns that you may have in between meetings.
[10:05]<mlfoster>And we're officially done.
[10:05]<mlfoster>for today ;-)
[10:06]<frmarava>bye everybody and thank you: it has been really interesting!
[10:06]<mrinx>Bye
[10:07]<davidecr>bye